Gareth Mitchell:

Hello everyone. It's Gareth Mitchell again. Fun fact, this podcast has been running since 2007. So every now and again we like to dig into the archive to look back on those especially memorable interviews. We've narrowed down a few of our favorite guests out of literally hundreds of interviews over the years.

So today, Ana Matronic from Scissor Sisters, she digs those droids.

Ana Matronic:

I just sort of always assumed that everybody loves robots. Doesn't everybody love them? Aren't they just the coolest thing ever?

Gareth Mitchell:

But she's not the only famous musician to grace the earbuds of our podcast listeners over the years. We have surely Imperial's most famous PhD student.

Brian May:

I think I'm just Brian May: The curious mind, really. I really have a passion for unusual things, and this was unfinished business in the back of my mind for 30 years, I suppose. And it brings you close to the cosmos, I guess.

Gareth Mitchell:

Yeah, that was Brian May in 2007, having just completed his Imperial PhD thesis after taking some time away from his research to do some stuff. Apparently he joined some band or something. So taking several decades to hand in your thesis, it's hardly the end of the universe is it? So what is?

Katie Mack:

There's no theory of the cosmos that stretches our universe into the far future, more or less unchanged. Something's going to happen that will change the structure of our universe in a way that will be presumably disastrous for anything living in it.

Gareth Mitchell:

Let's get going on this little archive special that we have for you this month.

In 2015, the singer Ana Matronic, of Scissor Sisters fame was at Imperial. She'd been hanging out with robots. She loves robots. At Aldo Faisal's lab as part of a radio documentary she was making, Ana Matronic was right at home, and so was starstruck reporter Colin Smith, a huge Scissor Sisters fan, who heard just how far Ana Matronic's love of droids has taken her.

Ana Matronic:

I, in addition to being a performer, am a robo-phile. I have a lifelong lover of robots. So I've written a book about them called Robot Takeover: 100 Iconic Robots of Myth, Popular Culture, and Real Life. A lovingly comprehensive look at the way we use robots in fiction, all the different ways we use robots, and also how we've realized robots in real life. So not just fiction, but also real life. 65 fictional robots, 35 real ones.

Colin Smith:

Where has this fascination with robots come from?

Ana Matronic:

I don't know. I just sort of always assumed that everybody loves robots. Doesn't everybody love them? Aren't they just the coolest thing ever? So I chalk it up to pop culture. I was not yet three when the first Star Wars came out, and being a child of the '70s in America, there was all this pop culture. Buck Rogers, Battlestar Galactica, The Bionic Woman and Six Million Dollar Man, that showed robots or people interacting with robots in some way. And so I think in that way it was sort of an intrinsic love based on my early childhood. And then I became interested in the 1990s in transhumanism. And that was through the love of the TV show, The Bionic Woman, and then also the writings of the theorist, Donna Haraway, who wrote the Cyborg Manifesto.

Colin Smith:

I'm absolutely fascinated at the moment by transhumanism. Could you tell listeners a little bit more about that?

Ana Matronic:

Well, transhumanism is the study of robotics, and technology, and the ethics surrounding all that, and how it can be applied to human biology. So everything from nanorobotics to life extending capabilities, to combating death itself, creating avatars or mind files for people, so that if something happens to you, your loved ones could interact with a computerized version of you.

Colin Smith:

What's your favorite robot?

Ana Matronic:

If I have to choose one, I say The Bionic Woman, but then she's not technically a robot. She's a cyborg. But I love R2D2 and C3PO, I love Maria from Metropolis. I love Grandmother from the Ray Bradbury story, I Sing The Body Electric. Yeah, I loved the machines in Terminator, particularly Terminator Salvation. I thought those were really cool. Baymax from Big Hero 6 was so cute and funny. Data from Star Trek. Love him.

Colin Smith:

Lastly, you came to Imperial to visit Dr Aldo Faisal in his robotics lab. How did you find it?

Ana Matronic:

The technology that he's working on is fascinating, and I think something that will just enhance our lives. It will revolutionize the lives of people who are disabled and don't have full motor function. It, to me, is just so fascinating and such an exciting time to be alive.

Gareth Mitchell:

Ana Matronic speaking there to Colin Smith.

So let's go back to 2007 when this podcast was just a few months old and we managed to bag a pretty big interview. Not a bad start really.

But first up, an Imperial College PhD student has just submitted his thesis and one of his extramural activities alongside being a student here at Imperial is playing in a rock band. And you might think, well, that could apply to many students. But not all of them are Brian May from Queen. But it is true, Brian, you have just handed in your thesis. It is here. It's a weighty looking tome in front of us. Just give us the title of this PhD.

Brian May:

The title is A Survey of Radial Velocities in the Zodiacal Dust Cloud. It's an investigation into the movements of dust particles in the solar system. We're actually surrounded by dust everywhere, not just house dust or whatever. Dust which is the result of various things. Probably collisions of asteroids, the remains of comets, and even interstellar dust. But as you probably know, we really are made of dust. Everything that we see around us has been inside a star. Dust and gas are the components of everything. It's the study of dust which is quite close to us in the solar system, between us and the sun, and a bit further out as well, out towards about as far as Jupiter. And what we were doing was looking, with a spectrometer, looking for doppler shifts in the light, which is reflected from this dust.

Gareth Mitchell:

So what kind of insights do you get into the dust by studying it then?

Brian May:

Well, the questions that you want to ask are where did it come from, what's it doing, and what does it have to do with the creation of the Earth, and the other planets? So in studying its motions, we have a unique way of getting some insights into where it came from. That's the big question, I suppose. What's it doing there? What does it have to do with us?

Gareth Mitchell:

And I noticed that in the title of your thesis is the word motion. So you're not just interested in the dust as a static entity. You're actually interested in the way it moves as well then.

Brian May:

That's right. Most of the studies of the zodiacal dust cloud that have been done have been photometric. In other words, just measuring how much there is there and what's the brightness, what's the distribution, and it's an unusual technique to actually measure the velocity. Actually, astronomy is full of doppler shift investigations, but it's quite unusual to apply it to this dust cloud. It's unusual because it's very difficult to do, in fact. It's hellish difficult to do, in fact.

Gareth Mitchell:

Is this partly why it took so long to do it then?

Brian May:

Well, yeah, Maybe, yeah. I had to build the instrument. I had to build a thing called a Fabry–Pérot spectrometer, which is a much more luminous instrument than most of your spectrometers, which are done with a slit in a grating. So it's a very specialized instrument which gives you the best chance of gathering enough photons to get some clue as to what's going on.

The instrument that I built in 1970 is very crude by today's standards, so I'm hoping to go back and repeat the observations with a much better system. Nevertheless, we got good enough spectra to make some conclusions. And the conclusions we drew were roughly that certainly some of the dust is in pro-grade orbits, in other words, going around the sun in the same way as the Earth is. Some of it probably isn't. Some of it may be drifting through the solar system. And we were able to make some estimates of the size of the particles.

So in a sense, it's early days with this kind of investigation, but certainly it looks like if we got more accurate measurements, we would be able to answer some more questions.

Gareth Mitchell:

So it's a kind of proof of principle then that this is a viable technique for studying this kind of dust.

Brian May:

Yes, fortunately, we published my results in two journals. We published an article in Nature, and an article in Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society. So the stuff is documented, which actually makes it a lot easier for me to defend my thesis, because what I can say is, "Look, the observations are there and they've been quoted by other people," and they were actually the first complete survey around the ecliptic of these measurements.

Gareth Mitchell:

And the backstory being that this is work that you started off as a student here at Imperial College in the 1970s, and then you hung out with the rock band and the rest, as they say, is history. So was it that you did the observations back in the 1970s and the bit you've been finishing off, writing up this thesis, is actually tabulating and analyzing and communicating the results?

Brian May:

Yes, more or less. Although in fact I did most of the analysis in those days as well. I've reinterpreted some of it in the light of what we know now.

Gareth Mitchell:

And the obvious question, I know everyone's asking you this, so why now? Why come back and finish this PhD? Because I assume that you're not ... Well, maybe you are. Are you setting out now to be a career scientist, or are you still Brian May the musician but this was unfinished business for you scientifically?

Brian May:

I think I'm just Brian May the curious mind really. I really have a passion for unusual things, and this was unfinished business in the back of my mind for 30 years, I suppose. And I'm thrilled to be able to have the opportunity to go back and tie things up so I can hold this tome in my hand. But it's more than that, because this opens some doors and we've already discussed the fact that I'll stay on and hopefully do some more observations. And it's the observations which I love. It takes you to the most beautiful places in the world and it brings you close to the cosmos, I guess.

Gareth Mitchell:

And what are the parallels between doing this as a scientist and your work as a musician? As you go about finishing a thesis like this, was it a little bit like finishing off an album, where there's some point we've just got to let the album go and do that last overdub, and then send it off and get it cut? Was it a bit like that with this thesis, just knowing when to finish it?

Brian May:

Very much so. Yeah, you hit it on the head. Yeah. I had to really chuck everything out the window. I had to stop doing almost everything to finish the thesis at some point, having made that commitment, I really had to go for it. And there was some difficult times. But yes, very much like an album, very much like a piece of music, because you want it to be perfect and you want it to be everything that you dreamed it could be, but at some point you have to stop.

Gareth Mitchell:

I'd imagine you have a reputation for being somebody who ... You must be a perfectionist and the rest of the people are saying, "Come on, the album's done, Brian. Just leave it, move on." Is that what you like as a musician and partly what you like as a scientist?

Brian May:

That's probably a fair comment. Yeah, I'm usually the guy who's in there till five in the morning tweaking things. Yeah. There's a kind of push/pull thing that goes on, because you have to have perspective, you have to have an overview. So you have to step back quite often. But there are times when you have to step right in and look at the detail, and the little nuances which make all the difference. So you have to have an incredibly adjustable zoom lens, I think, to make the best of anything really, art or science. That's my feeling.

Gareth Mitchell:

What's it like to be back here after what must be quite an interesting career break for you?

Brian May:

It's very curious. I feel a bit like that book by HG Wells called The Sleeper Awakes. I don't know if you've ever read it. It's actually not a very well-known book, but the guy sort of goes to sleep for some reason, wakes up 100 years later and has to deal with all the changes. It's a bit like that for me, because it looks pretty similar, a lot of it. And I walk around and I see a lot of the same landmarks, and I walk into the same physics building and the same lecture theater is still there.

Gareth Mitchell:

It's hardly changed a bit, has it?

Brian May:

No, but there are subtle differences. There are pictures on the walls, there are all these clues that an awful lot has happened since I've been here. There's pictures of the heads of departments and a lot more pictures around the place. It's also a lot more student friendly. There's a lot more of a campus than there used to be. It used to be a bit of a cold place, Imperial College. You tended to go out for your entertainment, but now there's a real feeling of community here. So it's odd. It's very odd. And of course, I'm a bit of an oddity here. I can't really blend into the background. People look at me in a very strange way a lot of the time.

Gareth Mitchell:

Any invitations from the Rock Music Society then, to join in?

Brian May:

I've had various invitations, but again, I've resisted everything up to now because I didn't want to get too embroiled in enjoyable life, because I wanted to do the job and I thought it would get in the way if I was too visible.

Gareth Mitchell:

So what's your biggest achievement then, Brian? Is it this thesis in front of us or Bohemian Rhapsody? There's a question.

Brian May:

Well, it's hard to compare. Bohemian Rhapsody really is a triumph for Freddie. Yes, we all contributed. Yeah, I'm very proud of what I contributed to it, but that has to go down as a Freddie masterpiece really. I don't know. I have a strange feeling that in 100 years’ time people will probably care about the music more than the zodiacal lust. Did I call lust? There's a Freudian slip. The zodiacal dust. But for me, they're both important. I love the fact that I can reach into both areas and enjoy them. I'm actually excited, very excited by music and by astronomy, and for the first time in my life I'm able to actually contribute to both. I've been a very fortunate person.

Gareth Mitchell:

Dr Brian May, speaking to the podcast back in 2007. And finally, the end. I mean literally, the end. You'll know what I mean as you sit back and listen to this previously unreleased interview from about three years ago.

Hayley Dunning:

So I'm here with Katie Mack, who is on Twitter @AstroKatie, and she's been speaking at a Science for Fiction event, that was organized by one of our professors here to give some science fiction writers some tips on what the science says. So you gave a talk about four ways that the universe could die. Which is your favorite?

Katie Mack:

Well, the talk was four ways. There are other possibilities, but my favorite was one of the four, which is vacuum decay. And that's a process where basically the universe is destroyed by a bubble of quantum death that expands out at the speed of light from some random point at a random time in the universe. Probably won't happen anytime soon. It is very, very unlikely. But there's been some fascinating research in particle physics, talking about the possibility that our vacuum is not fully stable and that some kind of process of decay of our universe could happen at some point in the future.

Hayley Dunning:

Now you told us not to worry about this, in part because it's very unlikely, but also because as it travels at the speed of light, we wouldn't really see it coming. But when you consider these deaths of the universe, do you ever get a bit melancholy about it?

Katie Mack:

It's funny. Yeah, sometimes. It gives you an interesting perspective to think about, the universe had a beginning, and as far as we know, based on our understanding, for all practical purposes it will have an end. There's no theory of the cosmos that stretches our universe into the far future, more or less unchanged. Something's going to happen that will change the structure of our universe in a way that will be presumably disastrous for anything living in it. That's kind of a sobering thought sometimes, but it also kind of puts into perspective a little daily trouble. Well, someday the universe is going to end, so maybe it's not that bad. And it's also really interesting, because it's so far in the future, these different scenarios, that it doesn't have any impact on your own life. But it's a sort of sobering thought, just thinking of these massive forces and how the cosmos changes on the largest scale on these unimaginable timelines. It can really change your perspective on the here and now of we're sitting on this very pleasant planet, surviving in this universe that in some ways is very, very hostile, as you get farther out in time and farther out in space. And so it kind of makes you appreciate what we have here and want to preserve it.

Hayley Dunning:

Now, I know you are also writing a book on this subject, and you've been doing a bit of a tour in the UK also doing some research. What's the most surprising thing you've learned so far?

Katie Mack:

I've been talking to a lot of people about how we're studying the end of the universe and how we're going to learn more about the future of the universe with new telescopes, and new data, and new theory and all of that. I think the two surprising things are, one is that there's no real agreement on how we're going to figure this out or what we're actually going to know in the future. Some people are very optimistic and some people are very pessimistic about our understanding improving a lot in the next couple of decades.

But the other thing that I found really interesting is whenever I interview a cosmologist or particle theorist or whoever, I ask, "How do you feel about the end of the universe? How do you feel about the idea that the universe will come to an end?" and I get a very wide variety of responses. Some people say that it's very sad or that it sounds really boring for this idea of the heat death where the universe will just keep expanding and expanding and expanding, and eventually we'll be in this cold, dark, empty space. That's the most likely end of the universe. That sounds very boring to some people, and they don't like it for that reason.

And some people say, "I think it's great. I think we should be transient creatures and just enjoy what we have while we have it," in this very philosophical look at it. And some people say that thinking about the end of the universe just makes them want to try and fix climate change. You can't think about the end of the universe, but we can think about the problems we have here. And every time you start to feel sad about the end of the universe, it can bring you back to like, "Well, we have something now we can work on and try and make our own lives better right now."

And so it's been very interesting to see that diversity of responses of all people who are physicists working in this field, thinking about these questions all the time, how we all deal with it differently. It's been really interesting.

Hayley Dunning:

Science fiction I think deals a lot with this kind of philosophy of science and how that makes us reflect on our lives. Do you consume a lot of science fiction?

Katie Mack:

Yes, yes. I read a lot of science fiction and I watch a lot of science fiction. At some point in the last few years, I was thinking about the kind of fiction I read and TV shows I watch and stuff like that, and I decided that I was going to focus on things that involve spaceships, because I needed to make sure that I had some good escapism in my life and something that maybe had a little bit of a science component, but wasn't anything to do with reality. And so I'm like, I'm just going to read books about spaceships and watch TV shows about spaceships. And that turns out to be a really nice goal if you really want to make sure that you're getting as escapist as humanly possible in your leisure time.

Hayley Dunning:

So it's escapism, but do you ever notice the errors? Do you have any bug bears like faster than travel or anything?

Katie Mack:

I don't mind that stuff too much. I think it's okay in fiction to take flights of fancy, and to imagine, "What if we could do this? How would that change society?" Because that's often the question. It's not really about the science, it's about how people respond to these very different situations in terms of technology, or in terms of where they are or how they can travel between places. And so the interesting point is always how do people react? How does society change? And so I think it's okay to tweak a knob on some bit of the physics and just see what happens. And maybe you get some insight into human nature by looking at those outlandish ideas. But it is also nice occasionally to find fiction where the science is really, really right, and maybe there's some tweak somewhere, but it makes sense and everything else is consistent. Those kinds of things are very satisfying, but I don't hold it against authors when they need to take a shortcut to get to a story. I think that's okay.

Gareth Mitchell:

Katie Mack, AKA Astro Katie, talking there to Hayley Dunning.

Well, assuming the universe is still here, I certainly hope so, I've booked some tickets to a gig, then we'll be back next month. Thanks very much for listening, whether it's just to this episode or maybe a few of our podcasts, or indeed everything we have put out over the last 16 years. Wow. I'm Gareth Mitchell bidding you a fond farewell, for now. Bye-bye.